Client wants a new color on covered deck floor currently it’s a semi solid oil stain and in very good shape, no flaking or lifting.
Is a light sand enough to go over it vs a complete removal? Going to a more brown stain vs the one that is a deep red. Thanks
When was the last time it was stained? Less than a year? You need to be careful.
If it’s the same brand that’s already on there, I’d call the manufacturer. They’ll know best.
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It was all stained 3 years ago. Cabot semi solid redwood stain. Even if it absorbs a water test , still not sure about the current stain bleeding through a new one if its left on.
With a semi solid already on there, you have a barrier to get through. Sounds lika a strip job first to me. @Racer may have some thoughts on this.You can also always call Everett Abrams the wizard of wood and see what he says.
Cabot’s helpline is really good. Just give them a call.
With that length of time, it’ll take the stain. I’m just not sure because of the stark color change if it’ll completely cover with the new color.
My thought is that you’ll be fine but that’s just a guess.
If Cabot says don’t do it, then you can either strip it or you can go with a solid acrylic (water based).
When I first started I did two deck stripping jobs… on was semi solid and the other was solid. Knowing what I know now, wouldn’t wish that work on anyone.
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Yea I keep thinking that even if it can take some stain they a color change won’t work with just one coat and a second coat isn’t recommended or won’t penetrate enough to not have some bleed through. Thinking more this is a pass unless I really price the job to not regret it.
Issue is by me everyone is doing everything as in painting and fixing and it sucks to lose lore and more business to that (she wants a house wash plus this).
Never priced a stripping job also.
That’s basically where I landed. The price it would take to make it worth my time just isn’t something most people are willing to pay, and honestly, there’s much easier money to be made in this line of work. Most of the people asking for it around here either want it to look decent enough to help sell the house, or they’re planning to replace the boards in a year or two and just need a quick fix. So more often than not, they end up going with a solid paint/stain it’s cheaper and gets the job done for what they need.
Yeah, that’s a common issue everywhere. People try to cast a wide net, or over time they take on more and more and start branding themselves as experts in areas they’ve only dabbled in thinking it’ll lead to more clients in other areas. I’m comfortable doing a lot of different things around a house, but I don’t advertise those services. I’d rather have my business known for doing one thing exceptionally well. If I’m already at someone’s house and they ask about another project, sure… I’ll consider it. But I’m not about to start installing toilets and hope that leads to a house wash.
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I think this is an oil modified stain, not an oil stain, and they are not the same thing. IT is like a blended synthetic oil, tell me how much synthetic is in there… Spoiler — you can’t and it isn’t regulated. Same thing, manufacturers prey on the ignorance of people, so oil modified could be one drop or 1/2 gallon.
What is a light sanding? Are you stripping or scuffing? Just to reiterate what smarter people than me have found: The deck doesn’t know the difference between a mechanical stripping or a chemical stripping.
I do decks because I make decent money from them. Yes, I price myself out of some decks, but those tire kickers were going to go with the cheapest job with the cheapest paint anyway. Then in 2 years when it is flaking and peeling they would be running your name into the ground. Sounds like the customer is telling you what to do, that is always dangerous. I’m only a part timer and not dependent on the income, so my situation may not fit yours.
Do a test spot with a quart, if the homeowner won’t pay to do that, then walk.
Curious to know your process, what products you use, how long say a 500 sqft deck takes, and how much you charge?
I could fill pages with that question, so I will shorten it considerably when I say that “it depends”. So many variables, age of deck, previous coating, and stuff on the deck, and lastly height of deck. High decks require ladder work and time. Even with a stage/platform/plank it still takes way longer than a deck 1’ off the ground.
Since I live in a rural area, and many of my jobs come word of mouth, what I do is talk to the customer. I tell them what I can do, listen to what they want done, then I outline the costs and procedures. More often than not, cost is the number one concern. I give them the whole rundown on what they can expect to occur when I am done (serviceable length). What they call tie in and buy in, they decided what they wanted done. I show them what the paint guarantee means by the manufacturer (yearly maintenance, most are unaware). I have painted decks, I have just cleaned decks, and I have stained decks, and I also did one that insisted on Thompsons water seal. I also do log homes and the occasional fence (people just won’t pay to have it done in my area).
Generally, I wind up doing a quick clean (think 1 hour on way back from another job), wait a day or ten depending on weather, run a floor sander, then paint (for painted decks). For newer decks, I clean them and walk the boards, wait several days, then stain. For restoration jobs, depending on whether it is oil or water based, I either user hydroxide or hydroxide with butyl boost, walk the boards, let dry for a couple days to a month depending on weather, sand, then oil. This is the abbreviated process.
I read everything I can about wood, have attended the wizard of woods training, went to stain and seals trainings several times, and have been to permachink trainings. I come on here and read every thing I can. I have experimented with different strippers, from the alcohol based to the hydroxides. I have experimented with different mechanical methods from different grits to different equipment (osborn brushes, random orbital sanders (floor and handheld), grinders with sanding disks, air tool sanders, the diama brush, and even sand blasting (log home guys do this and it is more detailed then just “sandblasting”). My normal process for a repaint gig is just floor sander, random orbital hand sander for edges, belt sander for under rails and sometimes on the band boards, random orbital or osborn for 2x2 spindles/balusters, hand scuff with paper areas machines couldn’t get to. Then I backblow it off, then I paint. Outside, then inside, then floor, then steps.
When I bid a deck I look at the process when I bid it. If I have to move junk off, I price it into the estimate because it always takes more time than estimated, because you have to move it back. Not to mention covering it while it sits in the yard, god forbid something gets wet, even though it got wet on their deck. Sanding, unless it is a huge deck, is normally a 1/2 day, not including the time to get the rental and return it. If you go a little more coarse, then walk up the grit, it kinda goes fast, but you have to spend time countersinking nails/screws beforehand. So I normally start painting when I am done sanding to eliminate a return trip to save time. Think hand rails, not floor. Painting/staining is entirely dependent on 2 variables, the size of the deck and the amount of wind. If windy I am doing it by hand. If it is small I am doing it by hand (less masking too). If it is larger and the wind cooperates, I am spraying and backbrushing.
One of the biggest changes I made since I used to paint was using a deck brush like the deck boss. It is so important whether applying a film former or a penetrating stain to get that product into the wood. The vast majority of paint jobs I use the brush to do the deck. I have found I get better results.
Since this is getting super long, let me say this, I own every deck I do. I’ve worked with other painters and contractors, and they are not as finicky as I am when the deck is done. When I am done I want to be happy. The very last thing I do is I wait (try to time the homeowner’s arrival home with the completion of the deck) walk around the deck with the homeowner (with brush and bucket in hand) and hit anything they want done. usually with stain they see the light areas of sapwood and think it needs hit again even though it doesn’t - I don’t say a word, just hit it with the brush and rag it off immediately. I also do one other weird thing, I check on my decks the next year, not to drum up business but so that I see what has and hasn’t occurred to tile away in my mental rolodex. The homeowners have told me numerous times that they have watched me work on their cameras, or that the neighbors told them what I have done. I used to get mad about it, but now I think of it as potential job interviews.
My most recent repaint gig was estimated at 20 hours for a 1k deck. It could be a little longer or a little shorter, don’t know, every job has its issues. But this is closer to home, low to the ground, and is only flatwork and pool stairs. Paint (film forming stain) will be about 500, sander about 200. My estimate did not include replacing boards, that will be a job change after I sand and see how many need replaced. Homeowner agreed to it.
Having said this, I am no expert on wood. I make mistakes. I sometimes forget when cleaning about the optical illusion that wet wood gives. I have spilled stuff.
I’ve put some posts on the wood working thread. I’m going to say that I learned a ton of stuff off the people here. People that no longer post here and people that stlll do. Sometimes I reach out to people on here to get their input through private messages - yeah @qons @Racer @DisplacedTexan . I have also been contacted by people on the forum through private messages and I hoped I helped them as much as @MDA1775 and surface therapy helped me. Mda1775 is the guy you want to talk to, but he doesn’t come on here all that often anymore, and surface therapy had a career change for several reasons.
Man, glad it’s raining cats and dogs today, getting nothing done.
Edit for clarification: I’m a part timer. I generally work solo. On larger decks I may have help, either another contractor or a family member. I don’t need help with prep, just application, and sometimes moving stuff (cause I’m fat and old and have a bum knee).
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Thanks for all the info. I’m totally fine working with plain wood or anything that’s been stained or oiled… it’s the painted stuff that trips me up. It sounds like your process is pretty similar to what I did. (I basically pieced it together from a bunch of posts on here as well).
I started by blowing everything off, hit it with a hydroxide stripper, let it sit, then pressure washed it. But to really get anything to budge, I had to to go over 1500psi which was higher then I wanted and ended up causing a lot of furring (to be fair, the decks weren’t in great shape to begin with). So after that, I rented an orbital floor sander and took everything down. The end result wasn’t awful, but I wasn’t thrilled either… and the whole process took longer then expected and ended up just being a break-even deal. I did these for friends and mostly saw it as a chance to practice, so I don’t consider it a total loss. But now I know: either charge way more or find a better approach… mainly trying to figure out if there is a quality stripper to use, or at least a better one then I did.
That said, I pretty much avoid painted wood altogether now.
So on that recent repaint you did, was it 20 hours of work for a $1K deck, or was that the size of the deck? From what I’m seeing, you had about $500 in paint and $200 for the sander, so $700 just in materials… I assume you made more then $300 profit… Once you factor in everything else, what did your actual profit end up being?
sorry, let me be clear, the gig I am referencing is just an estimate I gave out recently (pretty sure I am getting it as they already verbally agreed I just need the signed paperwork). The paint is a pass through for tax purposes, so I don’t have it as income and I don’t mark up paint or stain. They pay me for paint/stain when it arrives at the house, it is theirs. They pay for materials, labor and knowledge (most expensive part). Profit margins kinda go hand in hand with deck size, I think you know what I mean. I estimate out losing tarps, brushes, and on bigger jobs, sanders on every estimate. Early on in my wood journey a dog peed and crapped on my canvas tarps. Can’t make this up, real life lessons learned.
The estimate was not for 1k, lol, I’d quit. I don’t like to throw my numbers on here, but lets say that I’ll make a couple of dollars.
The paint removal is restoration, stripping/neutralizing and sanding then application, and is priced at $4 sq ft and up. If it is just a repaint, it is sanded and repainted - not stripped. Big distinction in time and price.
next time you try stripping a painted deck (film forming stain) try 3 things. 1 - add butyl to your mix. 2 - increase the amount of stripper (8-12 ounce a gallon) and increase the dwell (45 minutes). The scuff test is just an early indication. When I walk the boards I also keep a bit of stripper ready to reapply for hard areas. 3 - and this is for a really boogered up deck, maybe cover it in plastic and let it sit overnight with the stripper and a wet surface (plan to do this closer to dark). Butyl will really help cut through the paint, but not always. Everett, the wizard of wood, sells an alcohol based product that is supposed to be good at removing tough water based coatings. I tried it out on several surfaces and had mixed results, there is no quick fix. Lastly, and think that chemical is just one method, hit it hard with a floor sander (random orbital). Think 40 grit, then 60 grit, then finish with 80. Be prepared for the first pad to gum up so price out the sanding pads in the estimate. I think they are $5 each or maybe $6, so on a 500 sq foot boogered up deck I would think double my normal numbers of sandpaper sheets. On the average deck I get the pad, (5) 60, (5) 80, and (2) 40 grit, if it looks a little tougher I get more (bigger decks get more). My place lets me return unused pads and paper, but I keep some on hand.
1500 is ok for PT lumber, but stay the 1’ off, and if you notice any tiny tearing immediately lower pressure. I use 15, 25, and 45 degree tips on my jrod and I have two jrods for different pressures, start low then go higher if needed. racer and displaced texan used surface cleaners on boogered up decks, but I haven’t yet. Cedar is lower, never did the Brazilian hardwood but it is on the deck thread.
Some furring is to be expected regardless of whether you clean or strip. Stripping hard will cause more furring, but you were going to sand anyway. I have some pretty detailed pics on the deck thread using sodium percarbonate to clean a deck and the furring.
Sometimes, just talk to the customer and let the know your cost/benefit analysis of the deck. Like I told them on the recent estimate, I could restore it, but why waste your money. Let’s make it serviceable for awhile, save some money, and then when you rip off your pool (grandkids) and redo your deck you will save the loot. They like that. I’m not robbing people, only tire kickers think that way. I have a lot of word of mouth work, plus I live in a rural area so everyone talks.
Ok, thats enough PWR for today. have a good day man, stay with it for at least one more deck and let me know how it works out. If you were closer I’d come over and help out a day. I’m a part timer, I help out my buddies pool business on the side, and my wife still thinks I should be out of the house more 
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I was gonna say $300 profit for 20 hours or work is crazy talk… I’m was estimating $3 sqft for paint removal and it still didn’t seem worth it to me. I’ll have to run the numbers at $4, but I still don’t know how to feel about it. Tips are noted, I did increase the ratio and let it dwell longer, but I think that might have also been an issue with the temps at the time and potential drying of chems as well.
Total sq ft I’d around 400 sq ft, all floor , about 10 spindles on a small set of stairs and a mailbox.
I definitely won’t get into using an actual paint vs stain, not wanting to touch paint on outdoor wood.
Almost wondering if I should just price replacing all the boards. Zero stripping and much more predictable results vs going over a not totally stripped surface.
Depending on how old the wood is, it’s not a bad idea.
we got snow last night, mostly freezing temps, high of 40 today with high winds (so really about 34-35). Sure I could go out today, but I thank the lord that I am a part timer on days like this.
I just wanted to add, since I’m doing much of nothing, is that everyone says do this or do that for wood. That just doesn’t work for me. My experience says that every deck is different and you have to have a slew of things ready. Some of my tests prior to the deck didn’t even indicate the mess that I got into. 3 layers or more of paint (film forming stain) is just going to be a PITA no matter what. Sometimes I flood a yard because I had to spray so much to strip the deck. I warn people about this possibility if their deck is boogered up.
I will probably never ever use a diamabrush on a deck again unless they are paying $$$$$ and agree to pay for the replacement heads. It works, but it is a huge pita to use and you have to wear a face shield and a mask, and crawl around on your knees all day.
You have employees, you might need to be $4.50 a sq ft and up. Avoid tiny decks with a crew, you won’t make money that way you need at least a 500 sq ft deck preferably larger. Let the “new” guy take the little decks for stripping. I would still take the small decks for a repaint (film forming stain sold by just about every big box store). Just a screw nail set, sand, and paint, you could prep two a day or more with a crew. Maybe even stage them, like one sanding, one painting, one stripping, so you can bounce around enhancing productivity and profitability. You know your business better than me, but having contract painted I used to like to have several fires burning so when sally says you can’t come on Monday due to the big mess she has your good on the schedule. As a solo guy, I tackle (mostly) one at a time. I mix in house washes and other stuff. Then I schedule time in my garden and field where I really belong. I don’t know what it is, but my soul feels right when I’m tired and dirty in my field - far away from people and their drama.
Just for clarification, I call everything that isn’t a wood penetrating product a paint. Film forming product is a description that is more accurate than stain. They use the term stain for marketing purposes and it is intentionally deceptive. It doesn’t stain anything that I have found other than my rags and hands. Whether it is a water based or oil modified formulation it is generally a film former.
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So far the client hasn’t been responding and I bet it’s because some cheap said he will do it but without all the proper prep aka will fall apart in months so not pursuing it more.
When I started working on price it would be the same or cheaper to replace the boards and then at least have a predictable/ good outcome but people won’t pay what the job will cost.
